Rationale for a Full Frame DSLR

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OK…. I was going to wait until I generated enough sales on my microstock sites to afford a Full Frame DSLR camera. I was going to wait until Canon came out with the next generation of Mark 5D…. the 5DMkIII.

But I am not a good waiter. So this is my story and logic of going to a Full Frame DSLR camera…. NOW!

First a few words about the cameras before the Full Frame DSLR camera……

I have had Canon point and shoots for many years. I really loved them and their ease of use and the good quality images that they would produce. What I did not like is my lack of control over the qualities of each images. I wanted more control over my depth of field (DOF) and I wanted more image file information so that when I manipulated the file in photoshop or Aperture 3 that the overall image quality (IQ) would not be affected. So I got a REBEL XS (1000). Note that all of the camera images here are courtesy of DPReview .. You can find a great review of this camera here. By the way, I think this is the best Canon entry level DSLR. That camera enabled me to learn about how to work with a DSLR and gave me a taste for what a decent DSLR could do.

My next camera was the Canon 50D. A good review of that camera can be found here. Of course, I feel that this camera is a really good 2nd camera. With each camera I continued to upgrade my lenses. I experimented at first with the kit (lenses that come with the camera) and then better primes and zooms. Most of my early microstock work was done with this camera. It had a slightly larger sensor (3.32 vs 3.28 cm2) and higher pixel density (15.1 vs 10.1 MP). I think I could have kept this camera until I was ready for a FF camera as its a very nice…..semi professional camera, but then the 7D came out.Another excellent review here. I had to sell the 50D to afford this camera. By the way Ebay is a great tool to do that. I was all excited about the 19 point AF system with 8fps and HD movie capability. And I got another bump in pixel density to 18MP.

But…… For the first week or so…. I could not take a decent in-focus photo. No matter how hard I tried. No matter how careful I was….. about 8 out of 10 images were out of focus (OOF). I did some detailed lens calibrations on the AF….and discovered that it was the camera’s fault. By the way, throughout all of this learning I got A LOT of help from DP Review Forums . You can get yourself out of a lot of issues by searching these forums or just asking a question. It is instantaneous free help. Anyhow I sent the camera back to Canon. It turned out to be a bad AF system. When I got the camera back I verifed, via the lensalign system (see earlier post). But strange thing. I was still unhappy with about 70% of my shots. The focus was off or the exposure was not metered well.

It turned out to NOT be the camera. It was me…… and the camera. The 7D, in my opinion, is a big step in photographic tools. You really have to understand how to use the AF and metering systems. So lots of re-reading the manual and reading supplemental books. And then lots and lots of taking photos. I eventually got to the point where I was happy with 90% of the shots I was taking. Its a great camera. BUT…. there was one thing I did not like. The ISO performance in low light. I like to take photos of fruits and vegetables.

My best place to take pictures of stuff like this is the Sacramento Farmers Market, which also happens to be under a freeway. In addition, while we get sunlight in Sacramento 70% of the year, the other 30% (Nov-Mar) is mostly cloudy. Stack all of that together and it means poor light in a subject matter rich environment.

You can see the images that I have for sale here. Or all of my food images here that are for sale.

With the 7D you can push ISO to about 300 or so. With apertures around 6.3 or wider, on IS (image stabilization), hand held with shutter speeds @ 1/30 sec, using a 17-55mm f2.8 IS lens. On the darker days I have to push ISO beyond 300 to 400 or higher. That’s when you start to see the noise in the shadows. And I have noticed that the noise will clean up fine with a program like Topaz’s DeNoise , BUT (there always seems to be a but) you do loose some of the complex quality details in the image. And I have also noticed that with the 7D noise at ISO’s of 800 or higher that any of the denoise programs seem to see the noise as part of the image and they have little to no effect on the noise.

That made me wonder about a Full Frame DSLR camera.

Canon’s entry level full frame camera is the 5DMarkII.

Another great Canon camera with a really good review here.

However (could have used ‘but’… ) This camera is about 2 years old. Getting a bit ‘long in the tooth’. AND it would set me back about $2500. AND about 50% of my lenses would not work with it. Most of the new lenses that Canon has been putting out are APS-C lenses. They won’t work on a Full Frame DSLR camera. I think Canon can generate a lot more sales on those lenses because of all of the APS-C lenses they sell.

In any case, getting a Full Frame DSLR camera would probably entail getting at least one new lens now and more in the future.

So why go there at all?

Well, its this noise issue. I have read in reviews and I have enough general understanding of DSLR’s to know that if you have a larger sensor that you can capture more light. And depending on the MP rating of the sensor, there will be a lot more image information. This should and does mean less noise. But how much better is it and will it be worth all the extra money. I was also struggling with questions like, “should I sell my 7D and APS-C lenses to afford this Full Frame DSLR camera”. But I really like the AF system and the 8 fps capability of the 7D. AND the 5DMarkII is 2 years old. I think its analogous to “Dog Years” so its like a 14 year old camera in human years (maybe that’s stretching it a bit). On top of all of that Rumors have it (the best rumor place is Canon Rumors ) that the Canon 5DMarkIII will be out next year with AF capability like the 7D and maybe a higher frame rate too!!

Oh My… What should I do…..

I like the 7D but for noise, Full Frame DSLR would be better….I think, but my camera budget (my weekly allowance + microstock sales) was not big enough, the 5DMkIII won’t come out for a while………

My decision was….. Keep what I have (except for a couple of APS-C lenses I don’t use much… sell those), And get the 5DMarkII!!!

So I went to see the CEO/ CFO of the Keenan Bank AKA my wife and made a loan. I ordered a Canon refurbish 5DMkII and a 24-105mm L lens. BTW I think this is a great way to go. You get equipment that looks brand new, carries a warranty (short term), and has been fully checked out and calibrated by Canon. Here is the Canon refurbished store by the way. Oh… and now, 6 weeks later, I only owe about $200 to pay back the loan…..not bad.

It came in a week.

I took a few shots next of stuff around my home. The first thing you notice is the noise. Not the image noise but the camera noise. I guess if you move a shutter that is 60% (or whatever it is) larger that there is going to be more mechanical noise….. but it IS noticeable

My first impression – It looked just like the 7D except for the markings. I turned the camera on. That took a while. The on/off switch is down at the bottom, I think where my 50D was. I like the 7D switch better. Looking through the viewfinder….. I was immediately disappointed. I mean I read the reviews and specifications, and I knew that there were only 9 AF points (left). But it immediately felt….. old. I really liked the 19 AF points on the 7D (right) and used them all the time. I have a lot more to say about the 5DMkII but let me say that I find the 9 points limiting. I am constantly moving the AF point around in my shooting and many times the 9 points don’t get to where I want to go….so I focus the closest and then recompose a bit.

But… that’s ok…. I am keeping the 7D for its AF capability and this was really for noise.

So I take some pictures in my home at various ISO’s with both cameras and compare. I try to keep everything the same so I have an apples to apples comparison. The 5DMkII is better…. but for some reason it only seems to be better by a stop or so. An image on the 7D at ISO 400 is about the same as an image on the 5DMkII at 800. Hmmmmmm I wanted better than that. BTW I will post some comparison images here later. I had a sinking feeling that I had just gone into debt for a few months to get a 2 year old camera (14 human years….remember), with an old AF system for a stop of performance…….

I re-read the reviews…..I need to withhold judgment on this camera until I go out and take lots of images. I did that and I am glad that I did. What I found is that the 5DMkII has about the same noise as the 7D, in shadows at 800 ISO vs the 400 on the 7D….. but I have to say that it is softer finer noise. You have to view it at around 200% crops but its better noise and definitely acceptable. I notice, as I mentioned before, that the 7D noise got gross and hard to clean up at 800 ISO and above. And before you 7D lovers go ape over this statement……keep in mind that I am talking about viewing the noise at 100% and only in poorly lit shadow areas. Also to those of you who yelling…. who cares….. I do, and so does every microstock artist (can I say artist…. I like to think I am )

More over I think the noise is still, many time useable, without filtering it, at 1250….. and I have even used it up to 3200 with only minor denoise. Also its hard to describe, but the image quality is better. The funny thing is that, in the last 6 weeks, except for comparison shooting, I have not picked up the 7D….and I shoot every day.

I was thinking that…. well… I still have the 7D for action shots with its excellent AF system. But then I had an opportunity to go to the Kraft Feed the hungry bowl in San Francisco. My nephew, one of the Boston College “big uglies” was playing, Emmett Cleary , and he got us some tickets. They were in the fans/and family section and I knew it would put us @ the 50 yard line AND about 50 yards from the field!!

I had a 70-200mm IS f2.8, a 100-400mm IS f4.6-5.6, and a 2X converter. I had the same set last year for another bowl game with the 7D. My shots were in focus but I was not happy with the noise. Its a night game, well lit…but night. I found that I wanted at least the 400mm and the 400mm with the 2X tele was preferable for filling the frame. Those shots were done at about f5.6 with a shutter speed of 1/500 sec. With those settings I was up to ISO 3200. The shots were neat….but not where I wanted them to be.

So this year I get a second chance. I was thinking of bringing both the camera bodies with me and both lenses with the converter. But I was worried about getting stopped for having too much stuff. That would have been a logistical nightmare having to work my way back to the car. So I had to decide…which body. I put the question to my favorite forum on DPReview . Somebody suggested the 5DMkII and renting a 300mm F2.8 IS. I found that lens and the older version 300mm f2.8 non-IS lens. One was $150/ weekend and the other was $50. I chose the cheaper (I am still in-debt). I also planned on using the 2X converter from canon. I had read that the converter was designed to work with this 300mm lens. Most photographers would say chuck the 2x but this article promised a good results. So I brought the 300mm (its huge compared to my other lenses) and the 2X and the 5DMkII. I also brought a monopod.

Well I was pretty happy with the results. With the 2x I was forced to shoot at f5.6, 1/500 sec (shot in Tv mode). I went with auto ISO so most of the shots are with an ISO of 3200. About the 3rd quarter I pulled out the 2x and was about to drop the f stop down to 2.8 and the ISO dropped as well.

Here is a collection of the best images. the 300mm 2x shots have minor cropping and I did use some light de-noise. The 300mm shots had more cropping but less or no de-noise.

I also thought that I would include some 100% crops of comparisons between the 7D and 5DMkII. Its a scene of fruit on a plate. I took a series of shots using the same framing, same aperture, same distance (so focal length changed), and then let shutter speed vary according to the way the cameras Av mode metered the shot. But then I thought that this would provide a different DOF and that the 5DMkII might fair better in this test because the DOF would be smaller and therefore noisy areas might be de-f0cused more than the 7D, in effect masking noise. I am not sure if this is true or not (and am too lazy to check it out right now). So I thought that a fairer test would be to keep the DOF the same. So I used my trusty iphone pCam app to calculate a different f-stop for the alternate camera to keep the DOF. This resulted in f6.3 for the 5D and f4 for the 7D. Oh…. and in Aperture 3 I adjusted the black and white points, put a small s curve in curves and I did a small shadow adjustment. Yes… all of this will bring the noise out worse but its what I do to most of my images.

So what you will see below is multiple sets of 2 images the 7D on top and the 5DMkII on the bottom starting at ISO 100, then, 400, 800, 1600, 3200, and 6400.

ISO 100

ISO 400

ISO 800

ISO 1600

ISO 3200

ISO 6400

Well…. that test was not as dramatic as I promised. You can see that the 5DMkII is better and that the noise on the 7D is courser. I think my test may be flawed a bit in the process of posting it on a blog. Take my word for it….the 5DMkII has much better ISO performance than the 7D.

So….. I love my 5DMkII. While I wish the AF would be better….its ok. And the image quality and ISO performance are just great. So I suspect that I will use this camera till the 5DMKIII shows up. People are guessing that they will update the AF system to something like the 7D. So when it shows up I think I will likely sell the 7D, keep the MkII as my back-up and then the MkIII will be my new camera. I hope I don’t have to go into debt again.

Michael Tapes January 13, 2011 Hi Bib, Just wanted to let you know that we have introduced a new LensAlign product, that has all of the vital features of the Pro system, but at the price of the LITE system. Let me know if you would like some more info. Thanks for the mentions… Reply bobkeenan January 13, 2011 Yes please let me know about the new product. Reply

Hi Bib,

Just wanted to let you know that we have introduced a new LensAlign product, that has all of the vital features of the Pro system, but at the price of the LITE system. Let me know if you would like some more info.

Thanks for the mentions…

bobkeenan January 13, 2011 Yes please let me know about the new product. Reply

Yes please let me know about the new product.

Adam January 17, 2011 Hi Bob, I appreciate your experience and the distinctions that you notice in terms of shadow noise, but the real issue is how do they appear in prints? Do you notice differences in tonality, shadow noise, accutance, etc. between the 7d and 5dmkII? Reply bobkeenan January 17, 2011 Great questions. Here is were microstock skews and perverts the focus of the photographer (that would be me in this case.) I can’t sell my images on microstock until I get past the reviewer. And he/she will not pass images with any noise, anywhere, on the image when viewed at 100%. I have been doing this for about 2 years now and I hardly ever print anything anymore. But I suspect that the noise would not show up, on either camera up to some high ISO’s (above 1250)….unless you are printing out 36″ X 48″ posters…then you might see it. I did do a professional printing of my fruits and vegetables for a bunch of calendars. So the images were @ 8X10 inches (ea). No noise. As for differences in tonality, accutance (had to look that one up), etc. I do not have that experience yet. I will have to send some to my printer and see…. thank for the thought. Reply

Hi Bob,

I appreciate your experience and the distinctions that you notice in terms of shadow noise, but the real issue is how do they appear in prints? Do you notice differences in tonality, shadow noise, accutance, etc. between the 7d and 5dmkII?

bobkeenan January 17, 2011 Great questions. Here is were microstock skews and perverts the focus of the photographer (that would be me in this case.) I can’t sell my images on microstock until I get past the reviewer. And he/she will not pass images with any noise, anywhere, on the image when viewed at 100%. I have been doing this for about 2 years now and I hardly ever print anything anymore. But I suspect that the noise would not show up, on either camera up to some high ISO’s (above 1250)….unless you are printing out 36″ X 48″ posters…then you might see it. I did do a professional printing of my fruits and vegetables for a bunch of calendars. So the images were @ 8X10 inches (ea). No noise. As for differences in tonality, accutance (had to look that one up), etc. I do not have that experience yet. I will have to send some to my printer and see…. thank for the thought. Reply

Great questions. Here is were microstock skews and perverts the focus of the photographer (that would be me in this case.) I can’t sell my images on microstock until I get past the reviewer. And he/she will not pass images with any noise, anywhere, on the image when viewed at 100%. I have been doing this for about 2 years now and I hardly ever print anything anymore. But I suspect that the noise would not show up, on either camera up to some high ISO’s (above 1250)….unless you are printing out 36″ X 48″ posters…then you might see it. I did do a professional printing of my fruits and vegetables for a bunch of calendars. So the images were @ 8X10 inches (ea). No noise.

As for differences in tonality, accutance (had to look that one up), etc. I do not have that experience yet. I will have to send some to my printer and see…. thank for the thought.

Photoskipper January 20, 2011 Thanks for the good review of the FF and 7D. I like FF as I started old films 30+ years ago. FF brought back my old memories and see things like the old days. I own the old 5D since 2007 and added the mark II early last year. I also had the Rebel since 2004. When I enlarge the file on my 23″ monitor, I can see the differences of the 3 cameras. I do consider to get the 7D soon for travel and wildlife photo as it faster frame rate, more focus points and crop sensor. But the 5D Mark II still my best tools for the wedding, event, portrait and landscape. Reply

Thanks for the good review of the FF and 7D. I like FF as I started old films 30+ years ago. FF brought back my old memories and see things like the old days.

I own the old 5D since 2007 and added the mark II early last year. I also had the Rebel since 2004.

When I enlarge the file on my 23″ monitor, I can see the differences of the 3 cameras.

I do consider to get the 7D soon for travel and wildlife photo as it faster frame rate, more focus points and crop sensor. But the 5D Mark II still my best tools for the wedding, event, portrait and landscape.

Why I went from a small Point & Shoot to a Big Heavy Expensive DSLR – Bob Keenan Photography February 17, 2011 [...] the 5DMkII. I made the step up to the full frame 5DMkII before Christmas and have not looked back (see previous post). I have a Sigma 50mm f1.4 (nice narrow DOF with good bokeh), a 24-105mm f4 IS (on the camera 90% of [...] Reply

[...] the 5DMkII. I made the step up to the full frame 5DMkII before Christmas and have not looked back (see previous post). I have a Sigma 50mm f1.4 (nice narrow DOF with good bokeh), a 24-105mm f4 IS (on the camera 90% of [...]

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